[Introduction, woman's voice over music] Welcome to Web Axe, practical web accessibility tips. Web Axe dot blogspot dot com. Web Axe. Web site accessibility. Web standards. Web Axe dot blogspot dot com.
Dennis: Hello and welcome again to Web Axe. This is Podcast #80, Web Accessibility Successes, and this is your host Dennis.
Ross: And I'm Ross.
Dennis: Welcome, Ross.
Ross: Thank you, sir. How are things?
Dennis: Very very busy.
Ross: Yes, it seems like you've got a lot going on between your conferences and keeping a successful Twitter updated and new features…
Dennis: Yes, and Web Axe and then my day job too, so it's…
Ross: Right, the actual…
Dennis: And the high today is only 60 here in Northern California, but I hear it's very very nice in Michigan.
Ross: Oh, it's beautiful. It's like 78 is supposed to the high today, and the last couple days have been in the mid-70's. Everybody keeps saying that it's only a matter of time before that big snowstorm, ruins all of our…
Dennis: It's like Texas this year. It's been pretty crazy weather in Texas.
Ross: Right. They don't know quite how to handle it.
Dennis: Oh, hey, you redesigned your company's website.
Ross: I did, finally. I don't know how many people have seen the old one, but it had been in its state for three years now? A ridiculously long time. And it's one of those things where every time I went to redesign it, I decided sooner or later I didn't like the design so I probably went through 30 or 40 different concepts…
Dennis: Are you serious?
Ross: Not an exaggeration, yes. Finally I found one and it's like, all right, I'm sticking to it.
Dennis: OK. Well, congratulations. 3point7designs.com, right?
Ross: Yes, or 37designs.com if that's an easier number, three number seven designs. So now I don't have to worry about it. I just worry about everything else that you have to worry about when you're running a business.
Dennis: Right. I saw this on Twitter a while back. "The Assistive Technology Boogie." Did you come across it?
Ross: I had not, but it sounds fun. Boogie? Is this some sort of dance?
Dennis: Yes, it's a Flash thing on the web. It's done by Inclusive Technologies, and it's this funny animated dance and it has all kinds of…
Ross: Makes me want to dance. The music, that is.
Dennis: I'm trying to play it but it's not working because we're recording, so…
Ross: [laughs]
Dennis: But you know, it's like this animation was with the song and it has captioning and it even has audio description and stuff in the Flash, of course with keyboard accessible controls and everything, so it's pretty neat.
Ross: So they made a song and a dance for both?
Dennis: Yes, it's about assistive technology in everyday life.
Ross: Right. But then made it accessible, too, which is very important.
Dennis: It's really cool and it's a good testament to the fact that you can make Flash accessible, because most Flash out there is not accessible because developers just don't do it.
Ross: I think it's an education thing. A lot of people when they learn Flash, they learn kind of the sexy stuff, the action script and core animations and stuff, but I don't see too many places really teaching and promoting Flash accessibility.
Dennis: Yes.
Ross: Which is too bad, especially with HTML5 having so much potential power as far as replacing Flash. It's one of those things I should be concerned about.
Dennis: Yes. If you want to learn more you can always go to adobe.com/accessibility and there's lots of stuff from Adobe because they really want people to make Flash accessible, because it'll benefit them as much as everybody else.
Ross: Right. So if you're a Flash developer, please pay attention. But yes, it's nice to see something that's about accessibility that is accessible. I feel like I always run across websites that talk about accessibility that are not that accessible.
Dennis: That's funny. Just by chance I included that link in this podcast which is going to be about a few web accessibility successes. So it goes along right with the theme of this podcast.
Ross: Well planned. Very well planned.
Dennis: Anyway, speaking of captions, or at least transcriptions, we're always taking volunteers and donations to help get the Web Axe podcast transcribed, so I did get a few transcribed lately. I paid for a couple and had another volunteer, so that's good. So if you have a resource, feel free to leave a comment on the blog or email us at webaxe [AT] gmail [dot] com.
Ross: Yes, it'd be a huge help and we'd be more than happy to link to your website or tweet about you and make sure you get all the credit you deserve.
Dennis: Oh, yes.
Ross: Transcribing, it's a lot of work.
Dennis: Yes, it's a lot of work. But you'll definitely get a mention on the podcast blog as well as at least a couple of Twitter mentions, so…
Ross: Yes, so hopefully it's worth it.
[cat meows]
Dennis: Was that your cat?
Ross: Yes.
Dennis: Nice.
Ross: He's obsessed. I'm ignoring him.
Dennis: Aw.
Ross: Accessable cat. Anyway…Actually my cat is almost completely blind, so…
Dennis: Oh really?
Ross: Kind of a weird time for what we're doing. Anyhow, I'm sure that everybody doesn't care about my cat, so we can move on.
You recently were at CSUN, the conference. How did that go?
Dennis: Yes, let's talk about a couple conferences. So I attended last week, a week and a half ago, CSUN. It's the first time, I guess, it was in San Diego. It was my first time attending the CSUN Conference, which is also known as…well, this year is the 25th Annual International Technology and Persons with Disabilities Conference. And yes, it went really well. It was a really good time. I met a lot of people. I co-presented one session on Twitter and accessibility, co-presented with Joseph O'Connor, who is actually the webmaster at CSUN, California State University at Northridge.
The presentation went well. I was really happy with it. And then I attended the Tweetup on Wednesday night, met a few folks for the first time that I know on Twitter, which is really cool. Mike Paciello from the Paciello Group, and Wendy Chisholm and many other people. So it was really cool. I got to hang around with Jennison a lot. So that was a blast, because he's a fun guy.
Ross: That's kind of one of the great things I feel like with Twitter is that kind of icebreaker of you already followed and kind of know people through it for a while, and if you meet up with them at a conference it's like, "Oh hey…"
Dennis: Yes, it's like you know each other. It's really cool.
Ross: Right.
Dennis: If your job entails anything around accessibility and any kind of systems technologies or anything like that, then you should definitely, I highly suggest attending CSUN at least once. There are a lot of visually impaired folks there which kind of helps you understand what challenges they're facing.
The exhibit hall's pretty neat. They had all different kinds of assistive technologies that you could look at, from different kinds of input devices and screen enlargers and Braille output devices and all kinds of stuff. All kinds of software…So yes, it was a good time.
Ross: So, did you see any new advancements in assistive technology, or some you hadn't seen before but read about?
Dennis: Not that I recall. I'm sure I'm missing something. But if you attended and can answer that question, please leave a comment.
So what's Future Midwest Detroit?
Ross: That's a conference coming up in the next couple of weeks. So anybody who's Detroit area might want to check it out. It's not specific to accessibility or even necessarily the web. It's kind of more Internet in general focused. It should be a pretty big, good conference talk about what the future of the Internet is and how that applies to the Midwest. It seems like there's some pretty good speakers, some pretty big name authors like Joseph Jaffe are going to be there. I'm definitely going.
Dennis: Cool.
Ross: Anybody listening, come hunt me down. I'll be tweeting.
Dennis: [laughs]
Ross: So, shouldn't be so hard to find me.
Dennis: So, April 16th and 17th, 2010 at the Royal Oak Music Theater. My old stomping grounds.
Ross: Right, exactly.
Dennis: [laughs] That's cool. Royal Oak's always a happening place.
Ross: It is, it is. You show up and you kind of know that it's a cool place. I don't know exactly why, but it kind of has that vibe.
Dennis: [laughs] In fashional firm deals, right next door.
Ross: Right. Right. It could have been a couple died recently as well.
Dennis: OK, let's move on to news and articles.
[sound effect]
Ross: So, the first big thing, as of today, the iPad is out. This is Saturday, the day we're recording it. My guess is this won't be published today. But kind of big deal. Apple has released some pretty innovative products that have changed the way that we're doing things with technology. Which, of course, always has a pretty big impact on accessibility.
Dennis: Mm-hmm. A lot of people are tweeting about it. It's all over the blogs. It started arriving. People who've pre-ordered it started getting it already a couple days ago. I think CNET just came out with a big article on it. They do mention, towards the bottom…
[laughs]
Dennis: Towards the bottom, but at least they have a section on the accessibility in the article. It's pretty cool.
Ross: Yeah, yeah. It's nice to see there's some attention given there. It can be used as a spoken ebook reader. Apple does have a section outlining their accessibility features.
Dennis: Yeah, the iPad looks pretty nice. I did do a little blog about it a while back which is kind of outlining some of the basic accessibility features of it. Some of it is just inherent to the device. Just the large screen size with large text. It's not like a teeny little mobile device where it's hard to touch teeny areas or type really small keys. Because it's larger, it's easier to do the touchscreen.
Ross: Right, right. Do you think you're going to get one?
Dennis: I doubt it. [laughs]
Ross: [laughs]
Dennis: I would but, you now, I'm paying for my kids preschool, which is about half an iPad every month.
Ross: Ah.
Dennis: [laughs]
Ross: I suppose that would be a good reason not to.
Dennis: Yeah.
Ross: Yeah, I don't think I'm going to get one either. I think it's a cool idea, but I just don't see the situations where I'd be using it that often.
Dennis: Right. Yeah, definitely it'd be cool.
Ross: I look at my aunt, for example, and I could see her using it.
Dennis: Mm-hmm.
Ross: Just because she wants to do email and surf the web and play with photos but doesn't need an entire computer that she doesn't quite understand.
Dennis: Right, right. I guess Keynote's on there too which is pretty neat.
Ross: Oh really? Yeah, I could see that. Can play your slideshows.
Dennis: Yeah. So, what else have we got going on in the news?
Ross: As for the last few days, I don't know. Did you see this demonstration of where they actually were able to play the game Quake using HTML 5's canvas element?
Dennis: [laughs] No, I didn't see that.
Ross: Yeah. Pretty incredible, pretty incredible. I've got a link. If you haven't seen it, you should take a look. It's kind of a demonstration of how powerful the canvas element… Of course, a lot of people are now saying, "Oh, HTML five and the canvas element are going to replace Flash games." But we have to remember that that's also a huge accessibility concern. That's one of the things Jeremy Key talked about when we interviewed him a while back, there's still a lot of accessibility problems with using the canvas element.
Dennis: Yeah, I opened the article right now off of TechCrunch. There's a YouTube video with an example of it. Very cool. Yeah, I don't think it's gong to ever replace Flash. Yeah, there's going to be some competition but, you know. In the long run, it might not be as popular in the future, but I think Flash is going to be here to stay.
Then, good reminder about using the focus pseudo-element along with hover in your CSS.
Ross: So, this is a good article that talks about the usability and accessibility issues of the focus, which I thought was good. I feel like focus and active get skipped a lot, and that includes me. Oftentimes I'll forget I should really do those things. One on my checklist of things to test on a site before launch.
Dennis: Yeah. So, that's a new article from 456 Berea Street. It's a good reminder. Just got to train your brain when you're entering the hover, you should just also do the focus right after. Make sure it's keyboard accessible.
Ross: Right. So keyboard users can get that visual feedback of what link they're on. I think this is more common now because a lot of people use CSS resets. They kind of take off that outline…
Dennis: Oh yeah!
Ross: … that goes on. Then they forget to put it back in, and then all of sudden your site is not keyboard accessible or usable.
Dennis: [laughs] Like the CNN site.
Ross: Right. [laughs] What're you doing?
Dennis: No outline or anything else for that matter.
Ross: [laughs] So you just have to guess. [inaudible 17:01]
[crosstalking]
Dennis: When are they going to fix that? Geez!
Ross: Right. Well, it's not that hard to do.
Dennis: I know!
Ross: Brand etc. You know, big companies move slow and all that, but come on.
Dennis: OK.
Ross: So yeah, definitely pay attention to the focus. Pay attention to active. They're both important.
Dennis: Yeah. I was looking at the date of this article because I wasn't sure how recent it was. But it came out on April 1st, which is kind of a strange date to publish your article. [laughs] I'm always leery now…
Ross: [laughs]
Dennis: …about things coming out on April 1st because of all the jokes and everything going on.
Ross: Right, right. There were some good ones this year. Google, Topeka. Did you see the YouTube text videos?
Dennis: No! [laughs]
Ross: Oh, it was hilarious.
Dennis: I must have missed the good ones.
Ross: Yeah. If you went to YouTube on the 1st, the first video you clicked in, it would you a message that said by watching this video in text, you're saving YouTube $1 a second in bandwidth costs.
Dennis: [laughs]
Ross: And they had actually some way of converting the videos into basically text character that would make up the shapes and different colors.
Dennis: No way!
Ross: You could actually tell what was going on in the video. It was pretty incredible.
Dennis: Really?
Ross: Yeah.
Dennis: Wow.
Ross: So that was pretty funny.
Dennis: That's pretty cool. OK, so April Fool's people, nice job again this year. [laughs]
Ross: Right. It was fun. Then, in the the last news item, this isn't quite so new but still very interesting and I don't think we talked about it. Did you hear about how now Microsoft is being required to give users a choice in what browser they use when they first get a new system?
Dennis: Yeah. Now is that just in the EU or…?
Ross: I don't know exactly which regions, but I know it is tied to some government regulations and actions about competition. It's probably not all over Europe but certain areas.
Dennis: I did hear something about that. I know usage of… I guess that's a different thing. But they had some security holes and stuff so usage of Opera has shot up in Russia and Germany. Because IE keeps getting all these security holes discovered.
Ross: [laughs] So, yes, more recently technologically updated browsers are going to be adopted, which is great.
Dennis: Yeah.
Ross: The best browser can win, not just the one that's packaged with your software.
Dennis: Yeah, there's a lot of good competition right now. Ross and I were just talking about this before the podcast. I've been using different browsers. They're all pretty good now. I got Opera 10.5. I'm using Chrome more lately. I'm still using Firefox [laughs] at least for the add-ons, the development add-ons and stuff are great.
Ross: Yeah. Yeah, it's nice. I've been using Chrome a lot more, too. Firefox, despite it's… Well, 8, and it's slow speed—you know, Internet Explorer eight—when I test in that it's typically pretty good.
I mean it doesn't support some of the CSS3 stuff that I would like, but as far as rendering correctly, I feel like it doesn't do a bad job.
Dennis: Yeah, I agree.
[sound effect]
Dennis: OK. Let's move on to the main segments. We're going to talk about three websites. Three web accessibility successes.
Ross: Yep.
Dennis: So the first one is Tesco, which is a supermarket giant in the U.K. I've got to… I'm using different browsers now, see, so I'm all confused in my [inaudible 21:18] here.
[laughter]
Dennis: Go ahead.
Ross: So, it's a supermarket. An online supermarket. It looks like you can shop and order things online and they'll deliver it to you. You know, groceries, and there's cooking utensils and tools. And they had a meeting with the U.K. charity, Royal National Institute of the Blind, in the year 2000.
And they were told that large portions of their website were not accessible to a considerable portion of the population. They decided to do a re-design to improve the accessibility and usability of their site. That's kind of the story.
Dennis: Right. So the next year, in 2001, they re-launched the site and the following year their profits shot up over $12 million pounds—thirty times what they made the previous year.
Ross: Yeah, so that's huge, huge.
Dennis: Of course, that's, I'm sure, "correlational" data there. But even so, it's a great testament to the power of an accessible website.
Ross: Right, exactly, exactly. So that's a good example of how the cost to make a site accessible can be heavily outweighed by the profit that can be generated by it. If you ever have any clients who are—clients or bosses or decision makers who don't necessarily see that, it would be a good example.
Dennis: Yeah, you know, one big point that comes to mind is just an accessible website, usually implements web standards and it's semantics. It's inherently just much cleaner and lighter and more semantic and therefore, it's just much easier to maintain when it's created that way.
It's not only simpler, but to modify things it's much easier if you have everything in like one global JavaScript file.
Ross: Yep.
Dennis: Or a global CSS file, for example.
Ross: Right. Yeah, that's a good point. It's not always about "does the site generate more revenue" if you're looking at it from a business standpoint, but it can also reduce costs, in terms of maintenance, and upkeep and changes and even bandwidth costs.
There are some amazing studies out there about the difference between an accessible site and what tends to be less bandwidth that's used in that situation.
Dennis: Exactly. So it's faster and it will save you money with hosting.
Ross: Right. Exactly.
Dennis: So let's go through the site a little bit and check it out. It's Tesco.com. When you first look at it, I'm like—I'm not so sure, it looks like it could almost be like a table-based layout. Because of the grid-like system?
Ross: Yeah.
Dennis: But then, once I start getting into the code, it was really nice.
Ross: Yeah, they definitely have a nice grid design. But I mean this just proves that you can have web standards and have real nice grid layout and it doesn't have to break. But yeah, I looked through some of the code and it seems like they're using some very clean XHTML to CSS.
Dennis: I like the language attribute. It says "EN-GB," so the Great Britain version of English.
[laughter]
Dennis: It's pretty neat to see that. Usually, I type in "EN-US," right?
Ross: Right. Slightly different.
Dennis: And if you just simply disable the styles, you know, you'll see that it's just very clean code with lots of lists and headings and everything.
Ross: Yeah, they've got some rollover navigations that aren't dependent on JavaScript. So yeah, their navigation is, they've got some rollover drop-down navs, but it's not dependent on JavaScript.
So you can turn off the JavaScript and still see all their advertisements that they have normally cycling through. Nothing breaks, you can still access the content and still get through the menu.
Dennis: Yeah, and I'm using the WAVE Toolbar here, which I've been using more lately because it's just, it gives me those quick simple things to analyze a site that I like.
And I'm looking at the outline, the heading outline of the site, and it's nice and neat and clean and I hardly ever see those and it makes me happy.
[laughter]
Dennis: So we have one H1 tag and it says what the site is, Tesco.com. There's an H2 tag and it's nested properly. An H2 tag, and preference menu and category navigation, with a few H3s underneath that, and some more H2s, and a couple more H3s. So it's organized very nice, the headings structure, which makes me very happy.
And when I run the WAVE Toolbar errors features and alerts, the main tool—which shows you the icons and the good and bad parts of the site—I get no errors, so very well-done.
Ross: Yeah, yeah. I think those are some of the things I noticed as well was the nice planned-out headings structure. Seems like that's so easy to do, but very few sites take the time to plan that out in a really official way.
Dennis: And I'm running the XHTML validator on it, and the only thing that comes up is a few empty span tags. So that's thrown in there, it looks like, for a little design. So not a big deal at all. The code passes the validation with flying colors.
Ross: Yep. Looks like we can re-size the text quite a bit without breaking the design. Everything scales really nicely. And they have access keys, too. So they've done their due diligence and they've come up with a pretty accessible site.
Dennis: Very nice. I wonder how long it's… if it's had the same design since… Oh, they must have updated it since '03 or '05, that the story talks about.
Ross: Yeah, I'm sure, if for no other reason then let's say targeting 1024 or width resolution which I'm guessing they probably didn't do in '03. Or no, in '01 when they re-launched it.
Dennis: Yeah.
Ross: So, I'm sure they updated it, but it's good to see they continued to pay attention to accessibility.
Dennis: Definitely. Great, so let's move on to number two, Sydney For All.
[sound effect]
Dennis: So in Australia, they have the DDA, the Disability Discrimination Act, which is like the ADA here in the States. And this site here, I think, is for the transportation in Sydney.
Ross: Yeah, public transportation. I guess they were for decades. They were excluded from the DDA, the Disability Discrimination Act.
Dennis: And their website is now very accessible and looks really nice and it's even won a Vision Australia award for the accessibility of the website. So let's check this out, it's at sydneyforall.com.
And again, it has real nice, clean XHTML CSS web standards like coding. OK, something we didn't talk about in the last site but in this site, it has pretty nice contrast. I like the colors. There are some grays and blues and white, but the contrast is real nice, real clean looking.
Ross: Yeah, and they also have the option to change the contrast, too. Which more people have done, but they stopped doing quite as much.
Dennis: Oh yeah, I didn't notice that one.
Ross: You can switch from low contrast to high contrast to standard.
Dennis: Yeah, they actually need that stuff because the site is pretty accessible in itself.
Ross: Yeah, I think it's a nice feature to have, just in case somebody has particularly low vision but doesn't use a screen reader.
Dennis: You know, that's a whole other story in itself.
[laughter]
Dennis: You know about the whole idea about web preferences are for sissies from WebAIM, so…But let's move on.
Ross: Right. Change text size, for the kind of a lot of [inaudible 30:46] again, using Java script versus in the browser, change your text size, but it looks like the text scales very very large without ever breaking the design, which is great.
Dennis: They have a skip to content link at the very beginning, which is helpful and nice, nice clean markup. Love to see that. So they do have, I'm looking at their heading structure now. It's pretty good. They have the Sydney For All H1 tag at the beginning with the properly nested H2, H3. At the bottom they have-I'd probably change those to H2-at the bottom they have a your feedback and footer information, but those are in H1's. I'd probably put those in H2's.
Ross: Yes, I can see that.
Dennis: But that's a little picky. No big deal. I'll give them a break.
Ross: How nice. I feel like they've done a really good job with their alt tags too. It's not just…They put in the time to write alt tags that make sense and that would be useful. Not having them just to have them sort of thing.
Dennis: Totally. Like in the photo, there's a photo of the Sydney Opera House, so instead of just saying "Sydney Opera House," it says "Sydney Opera House at night, dramatically lit against a dark blue sky." So they're giving a little better description, which is nice without going overboard.
Ross: Right. There's yellow lighting. You can see the entrance is open, which would probably be a little bit too much.
Dennis: And there's a few…Yes, you get the idea. Anything else on this one? I ran the checker and WAVE and there's no errors. I run the validation check and everything checks out. I got a couple warnings and a couple attributes in the image tag, so they made a minor mistake there. But besides that, it totally passes, so great work.
Ross: Absolutely.
[sound effect]
Ross: And our next one is… Waiting for Firefox to switch tabs, it's very slow.
Dennis: Yes, I'm also having trouble closing this Firefox window actually.
Ross: LFLegal, which was developed by Mike Cherim, who's been on the show a couple of times. He's a great accessibility blogger and developer.
Dennis: Semi-retired, I guess.
Ross: He always talked about how he has some other side business, a mail-order business that does real well. So I think he does accessibility because he really enjoys it. Not because he have to.
Dennis: Oh, I see. Well, he does a great job. He did a great job with this site, and that's totally not how I found it. I found it because I came across a news release that this company had done, speaking about LFLegal. Their two-year anniversary for their accessible website was just a month or so ago. And that's how I came across it. I didn't find out that Mike Cherim did it until I was looking into it more.
Excellent job. It's built on WordPress?
Ross: Yes.
Dennis: Wow.
Ross: That was one of the first things I saw. I'm so excited. For those of you who don't know, I'm a fan of WordPress.
Dennis: And Mike Cherim is a WordPress guru. I wouldn't have even guessed that this is built on WordPress.
Ross: Yes, it kind of shows how extendable WordPress is as a platform. This has some really really nice clean, well-named code, and I think that's one of the things that I really ended up liking. It's just very semantic, class and ID names.
Dennis: I'm running the validator on it, and two warnings, which is really good. Most sites, I tell you, I run that validator and I get like 100, a few hundred warnings. OK, and I'm using the WAVE toolbar and I got… looking at the heading structure. It's pretty good. They've got an H2 going to an H5 and H4 is a little bit screwy but all in all, it's pretty good. There's one H1 filed by the H2 tags, so I like that.
Ross: And it's a nice use of image replacement, so his navigation items up at the top, they look like images but it's actually using CSS to overlay those images so there's still text in list items below it.
Dennis: And at the very beginning of the site there's three jump-to links, so that helps with navigation for non-visual users. And there's also some…on the upper right there's four neat column navigation items, so that's actually a list. So that's coded very well. And again, no errors in the WAVE errors, features and alerts tool.
Yes, I don't know what else to say. It's just a well done job. I don't know if we, I guess the official name is the Law Office of Lainey Feingold, and that's LFLegal.com. So check it out, get a lesson on accessible WordPress from Mike Cherim. It's awesome.
Ross: I was just going to say, when you're talking about validating, sometimes the problem is you get these contact management systems or these portal systems that, maybe they're fine when they're first developed, but when someone starts going in and making changes and adding content and don't realize what they're doing, a lot of them don't prevent you from doing inaccessible things, like if you copy and paste text for Word it puts in a whole bunch of depreciated [inaudible 37:52] and stuff like that.
Dennis: Yes, you've really got to watch out for that.
Ross: Right. So, shows that WordPress can be extremely accessible.
Dennis: Definitely. And I noticed how this site and the Sydney For All site, if you look in the body copy with the text links, they are indeed underlined. So yay… That's another pet peeve of mine, so it's nice to see that they've kept the underlines in the text links in the body. I really still to this day think that's important, even though so many people don't.
Ross: Yes, I agree. Are you against using the border bottom against the underline?
Dennis: Ehh, I don't know. I guess I'm not so much against it.
Ross: I know some people do that, they like how it looks designed, but it doesn't actually go through the descenders of a lot of letters. Which I can see potentially being a legibility enhancement.
Dennis: I suppose. I won't argue against it, we'll put it that way.
OK, so great job. Nice to see these very nice, highly accessible status-compliant, valid semantic websites. So great job to all three, LFLegal, Sydney for All, and Tesco.
And it was good to do this podcast and talk about all these positive things, because I know we've done one or two podcasts talking a little bit more about the negative things, but there are more and more really great examples coming out. So if you think you've done a website really well and is highly accessible, then leave a comment on the show notes or send us an email and maybe you'll be highlighted some time.
Ross: Yes. So it's good. I'd love to do more where we can look at really nice well-done accessible sites.
Dennis: Me too.
OK, well, that is all then for Podcast #80, Web Accessibility Successes. Thank you for joining us. We'll catch you next time.
Ross: Bye, everybody.
[music and commercial]
[END]